Long-time friend of Fortune’s Path Bob Batcheler – "Batch" to his friends – talks about his journey with four start-ups, including LeanKit, where he became a devotee of the lean start-up process. Batch gives advice about how to find your next great opportunity and not just your next one. A Lean leader and business consultant, Batch also talks about maintaining his network, and why it’s good to talk to people with no hope of ever getting money or favor from them.
Bob "Batch" Batcheler shares his secret for growing his consultancy and finding great companies. He gives his services away, and that makes people want more. Batch tells how his initial conversations lead to one of three outcomes: he has no interest (almost never), he knows someone who can help more than him, or he knows how he can help. Batch tells how his free exploration leads to a request for a commitment to an engagement, and how some of those commitments lead to full-time employment. Batch also talks about how product management is a job that requires 30 ways to say no. "Sell what's available today," is one of his mantras for good relationships between sales and product. Batch sells against alternatives rather than the ideal, and knows how to show that his product is way better than alternatives. "You don't have to be perfect, but you do have to be better than what they can do on their own or with another vendor." Batch tells how he handles the CEO who tells him what needs to be done, CEO's who are often leading organizations that lack focus and have limited ability to deliver. Batch talks about the power of focus and why that leads to more value than spreading yourself too thin. Batch enjoys being engaged and solving hard problems, and tells us why he applies Lean principles to his own life. "There's not an organization or an industry that Lean principles cannot transform," says Batch. Finally, Batch struggles with his APS beeping during a power outage.
[00:00:00] Tom: Bob welcome. It's so good to see you again. Great to be seen.
[00:00:05] Bob: Great to see you too, Tom.
[00:00:07] Tom: I have to say I'm a little envious of your career and the, the way that you've described it to me is like, that is just brilliant. And how you've been able to be independent and then test out an organization by working for them as a consultant, and then coming into that organization, in a variety of different roles and then leave again.
[00:00:31] Tom: I think that that is really, really interesting. So tell me how you came about, with that sort of a structure to your career.
[00:00:40] Bob: Well, I, I, I would dispute the characterization as, as brilliant because that wouldn't cause that would imply there was some grand plan, right?
[00:00:48] Tom: That's right.
[00:00:49] Bob: It, it was way more driven by circumstance and opportunity than it was by any grand plan.
[00:00:56] Bob: You know, along the way, I've had the good fortune of working, you know, deeply embedded in four startups. And of course every startup has a life, right. Mm-hmm it it's it's, it's not, none of it was ever a 40 year career kind of idea with one company, right. Mm-hmm so you do what needs to be done for that stage of a startup's life.
[00:01:15] Bob: And then you look for the next opportunity and the, the secret to it is, is not being so eager to dive on the first opportunity, right? As you exit one opportunity, take the time to, you know, to sit back a little bit and you know, Refresh the network and continue to see what's happening. What's out there.
[00:01:38] Bob: And find ways to in, in every one of those interactions, you wanna find ways to deliver value to the people you interact with because that, yeah. That will make you memorable and that will make them want more. Right? Yeah. So in that process, I've, I've always I've been very blessed to have a great network.
[00:01:57] Bob: Met a lot of people, you know, I've tried hard to stay in touch with a lot of different people. And I rely heavily on that, in that everybody who knows me well knows mm-hmm, , I'm more than happy to take a call from someone that they think might benefit from a conversation with me.
[00:02:17] Tom: Yeah.
[00:02:17] Tom: You said something to me years ago about how you are willing to pay dues into the startup community because you believe in it so much that you're, you're happy to give your knowledge away for a period of time.
[00:02:32] Bob: Yeah. Within, within reason, right? Yeah. And, and with reasonable expectation of there being some possibility of a return, I tell you, I really learned this lesson as we started my, the first startup that I was really a co-founder of mm-hmm . And as we started out up, I had the opportunity to occupy the conference room of our seed investor fellow by him, Jesse Devi.
[00:02:56] Bob: And, and I had the opportunity to watch Jesse and how he built his network, how he delivered value and how he was always, I mean, just constantly connecting people and, and with no apparent, you know, instantaneous. Expectation of a return mm-hmm , but you, over that six months that I, you know, sat in his conference room, literally one wall away from where he did his magic.
[00:03:22] Bob: I could see the stream of people that would come through and I could see the ways in which that got repaid to him sometimes years later, but off times pretty immediately. So mm-hmm, , you know, that willingness to invest that half hour or maybe an hour in a conversation with somebody who somebody I respect thinks could benefit from a conversation.
[00:03:44] Bob: I'm happy to do that at the end of, at the end of that time. I know, you know, there, there are three outcomes. Number one, I have no interest, which almost never happens. Mm-hmm number two is I know someone who could help them better than I can, or I know a resource that I can refer them to. And I'm happy to do that.
[00:04:05] Bob: The, the third one obviously is the, is the, is the bonus, right? The one where there. You know, a real possibility that I could, you know, add value, bring them value. And I am more than happy to in to then invest four hours. Maybe even a full day. Depends on mm-hmm , you know, depends on the nature of the opportunity that's in front of me.
[00:04:29] Bob: In an exploration and we, you know, and a week or two later we'll invest a a half day or a day, whether it's in zoom or if it's local in person mm-hmm , if it's, if it's more distant you know, I'm happy to invest my day and travel. If they're willing to pay the expenses. Mm-hmm , it's trying to build that kind of mutual commitment, you know, mm-hmm with me saying just maybe a little.
[00:04:54] Bob: Delivering a little more value than, but, but never go going here if they're coming here. Right? Yeah. And so at the end of that initial conversation, I'm, mm-hmm, , I'm able to do that and look at all those outcomes with the exception of the, of the bust, right? Mm-hmm that subject has gotten value in mm-hmm second or third outcomes and, you know, ideally again, they're, they're wanting more.
[00:05:20] Bob: So if we go into the exploration and I do four hours on zoom or eight hours in person or whatever it might be, mm-hmm at the end of that time, I will ask him for a commitment for three months of two to three days per month. Mm-hmm at, at my standard billing rate. Okay. If I have not in the course of that four to eight hours, yeah.
[00:05:47] Bob: Amply demonstrated that I could bring in worth. I could bring enough value and, and it's, it's a measured commitment on their part, right? It's it's, mm-hmm, , it's not a big nut to crack mm-hmm I'll ask 'em that commitment. And if they say, you know, this isn't for us, that's absolutely fine. No harm, no problem.
[00:06:05] Bob: . But if, but if a, if a saw value in that day that we've spent together, I'm, you know, I'm very confident that I can embed myself for three months and leave a happy customer behind mm-hmm . Now most of those three month things last six to nine months, some of 'em last two years, mm-hmm some of 'em produce full-time employment.
[00:06:30] Bob: That's how I wound up as chief product officer of federal analytics in Washington, DC. Mm-hmm mm-hmm that was, you know, it was a, a total of two years of, you know, a two year gig of your gig mm-hmm and, you know, They knew going in that I wasn't looking to make a career at this. I wasn't looking this to be a three to five year thing.
[00:06:51] Bob: My mission there was to create a product management organization within their company cuz they had none. Yeah. Yeah. And we uncovered that very quickly in the, in the exploration and mm-hmm , you know, it went from, you know, three days a month in the second month, it was five days a month in the third month, it was 10 days a month.
[00:07:10] Bob: And at that point they just said, Hey, would you do this for us full time? And I said, yeah, but for two years max mm-hmm and that was great. You know, we build a great product management function they've since gone on to get some great funding and build a, a real company from what was previously kind of a, you know, a really early stage, somewhat dysfunctional product vision, and product development wizards, but absolutely no way to get them to talk to one another effectively as, as product management. So I provided that that's for them.
[00:07:44] Tom: A, there's a lot to dig into in that story. a lot, lot. And so I'll get started how, when you're in an organization and you can tell that the product management function isn't working well, what are the signs to you that it's not working? What do you, what do you see when you go up? They, they haven't really implemented product management.
[00:08:05] Bob: it's really easy. Lack of flow, lack of focus, lack of clarity on priorities, lack of, you know, just confusion, you know, they mm-hmm , they, they don't know what they really have to be building. First, second, third mm-hmm there's no alignment.
[00:08:23] Bob: Mm-hmm , those are the things that in my mind are the, are the key indicator of an effective product management function is that you're building the right product for the right customer. And everybody in the company understands that. And they're all focused on accomplishing that mission for that customer.
[00:08:40] Bob: It's not rocket science, right?
[00:08:42] Tom: No, I agree. So, but when you're in an organization that says sales driven mm-hmm and so you you've got your roadmap and you have an idea about what you're, what you're building next anyway. And then somebody says, we just, we just closed this deal and we included this feature.
[00:08:58] Tom: And then your response is we don't do that. And their response is, I thought we did this. I, I was told we did this I'm I was sure we did this. We need to do this. How do you respond in that situation?
[00:09:10] Bob: Well, yeah Yeah. One of my favorite stories that I, I, I don't know where it came from. I didn't originate it, but, you know, there's the, the thing about, you know, apparently Eskimos have 30 different words for, you know, for the concept of snow, right? In English language, snow is snow, but mm-hmm, in, in with languages. It's apparently there are 30 different words that are different ways of expressing the concept behind snow. I really believe that a product manager's key skill is having 30 different ways to say no
[00:09:50] Tom: so that in that situation, somebody says, I, I closed this deal and we need to build this, your response. You would find one of those 30 ways to say that's a distraction. That's not what we're trying to do.
[00:10:02] Bob: You know, I would find ways to understand what drove the interest mm-hmm right. Mm-hmm, , mm-hmm, , it is crucial that companies understand what they do well and what they do best and that they sell what's available today.
[00:10:18] Bob: You know, mm-hmm, what sell what's available today. Mm-hmm and that's a key part of the mission of a product manager is to, you know, educate and enforce the sales team around, you know, what is the ideal client profile? You know, what are the, what are the things that we do? What are the things that allow us to deliver value to that customer without apology?
[00:10:40] Bob: Right? Mm-hmm and it's not to say that we'll always do everything. It's it's really that to understand that, you know, we can deliver extraordinary value relative to their alternatives. Mm-hmm right. So everybody that's interesting. Everybody always wants. right. Yeah. That's that's, mm-hmm , that is the nature of human beings is we always want it.
[00:11:04] Bob: All right. Mm-hmm but understanding what you offer uniquely mm-hmm compared to alternatives, whether those alternatives or competitors or whether those alternatives would be the status quo of mm-hmm , you know, continuing to do what they're doing now, mm-hmm or whether it's perhaps you know, a, an, an UN a non obvious competitor, meaning mm-hmm, , you know, implementing a manual process to fill in a gap in a process mm-hmm all of those are things that you have to weigh what you're offering against.
[00:11:42] Tom: Right. So it's a, I, I don't have to be perfect. I have to be better than what you're doing now and better than what you might do instead of me.
[00:11:49] Bob: Yeah. That's a great way to put it. Yeah. That's that's a really interesting way to, to to think about the The challenge of determining what either, what your MVP is or what the next right thing to build is.
[00:12:01] Tom: Yeah. So let me give you a scenario and I'm curious if you've ever come across this, across this, in your career. So I'm gonna go back to that story about I sold this thing that we don't have, and then you say, look, that's, that's a distraction. That's not, we have to, you know, I'll put that on the roadmap, but that's not what we're doing next. And I can't tell you when we're gonna get it done. And then you get you're in communication with the CEO, founder and their, their position is look Bob your job is to get the stuff done as fast as possible, but I'm gonna tell you what it is that needs to be done. How do you react in that kind of a situation
[00:12:44] Bob: Well, usually when I get involved in a situation it's, it's been that they've already lived that life. mm-hmm and they already know where that has led them. Mm-hmm , which is, you know, complete lack of focus, complete failure to deliver value in a predictable regular fashion. I am a huge believer in focus, you know, there, there's a reason why, you know, there's a reason why focus is a singular noun.
[00:13:13] Bob: And how many times have you ever used the plural of the word fo do you even know what the plural of the word focus is?
[00:13:19] Tom: Is it foci?? Yeah.
[00:13:21] Bob: Yeah. How many times have you used that word? maybe in geometry, but never anywhere else. That's it? You got it. I think in a lip has two of them, right.
[00:13:29] Tom: That's right, right.
[00:13:31] Bob: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm but there can be only one. Yeah. You know, and everything, you know, this is I'm channeling Don Reiner. I don't know if you know who Don is, but brilliant writer and thinker on cost of delay and prioritization and, and all that. He put it really well. You know, every decision to do one thing is a decision to delay everything else.
[00:13:58] Bob: Yep. And yeah, you just can't emphasize enough that you, if you can, you know, adopt small batches, in other words, incrementally deliver value and done is always better than perfect. Cuz perfect. Never happens. Perfect. Never gets delivered. If you can focus and get into a rhythm, a cadence of routinely delivering incremental value, you will make way more progress against the end goal than you ever will.
[00:14:27] Bob: By spreading yourself like peanut butter over the whole possibility you, you, I know, you know that I'm preaching the choir, but I, I, I time and again, I have to reign my clients and other people that I work with in mm-hmm to focus their efforts.
[00:14:45] Tom: You are a lean black belt. I know you have you know, I, I, I can't claim any grand credentials.
[00:14:52] Bob: I, I, okay. I, I have 30 years of experience in product management and yeah. Especially the last let's see, I first got involved with lean in 1998, so 24 years right around lean mm-hmm , but I have to say the most significant and formative experience was in fact, my years at lean kit. Yeah. You know I, I, I know at some point you wanted to talk about that anyway, but, well, let's talk about it now.
[00:15:21] Tom: Yeah. About LeanKit. Kit's a fascinating business to me. Tell me, tell me the story of Lean Kit..
[00:15:25] Bob: So I'll tell you my story at lean kit mm-hmm , which, or I'll, I'll start with my story of lean. So in 1998, I was product management, director of product management. Division of Autodesk, the developers of AutoCAD and inventor and other things like that.
[00:15:44] Bob: CAD CAD vendor. And we were routinely rethinking our customers work processes. And I realized it was one of those, you know, oh, shit moments realized that here we are revamping. You know, the work process of architects, engineers, and builders worldwide, and we didn't have a clue of what their existing work process was or even really what it should become.
[00:16:10] Bob: We, we had a solution that we were trying to jam into that problem. Mm-hmm so in frustration fortunately Autodesk was more than happy to spend money with consultants and other smart people who mm-hmm I brought in to help us learn what was essentially lean six Sigma at the time mm-hmm and we mm-hmm, got involved in process improvement analysis, and that was really the start of my association with, with lean.
[00:16:34] Bob: And that was all formative in the startup of my company that we started after I left Autodesk. But when 12 years into that startup I decided I was tired. It was time for somebody else to take it from 40 million to, you know, a hundred million in ARR. So I left that company and I had met John Terry mm-hmm from one of the co-founders of, of lean kit around that time.
[00:17:02] Bob: That was 2014, I guess. And I was fascinated with what they were doing. And in, in that process they had experienced some fabulous success directly related to it projects and, you know, large scale development, you know, management and, and such as that. And they asked me to join them, to help them break, open some new markets in operations engineering, operations for manufacturing and in the construction space.
[00:17:31] Bob: And I was, I was thrilled to do that. Cause that was just a really neat, you know, next step for me in developing my skills and, and, and such in lean. And the thing that was fascinating to me about lean kit was I have never before or since. Encountered direct firsthand experience with a company that is so conspicuously and conscientiously lean mm-hmm mm-hmm across every function in the company.
[00:17:58] Bob: Mm-hmm , you know, I, I know they've gone on to some great success since the acquisition by plan view and plan views, mm-hmm, experienced some great success directly related to the value that lean kit brought. Mm-hmm into that through the acquisition, but lean kit was was started by, you know, I, I guess it was four guys who were trying to solve their own problem in managing large scale it and software development projects and you know, the, the key founders, great folks they They gave me lots of, lots of leeway to explore these new markets for lean kit mm-hmm mm-hmm
[00:18:40] Bob: And we did that over that next two years, which
[00:18:42] Tom: did you land Rolls Royce?
[00:18:44] Bob: I did not land rolls Royce mm-hmm Rolls Royce was actually landed by a really capable domain expert that mm-hmm happened to be attracted to, to lean kit. And mm-hmm when I came onto the scene, we had already penetrated rolls Royce pretty effectively through mm-hmm the sheer doggedness of, you know, domain expertise and such as that we capitalized on rolls Royce very effectively with GE aerospace and with Jaguar land Rover and with a number of other, other companies mm-hmm but my, my under my understanding of link kit was that it was as you say, you're, you're solving the management of large software development projects, not just software development, but it mm-hmm and it was Kaban based, wasn't it?
[00:19:27] Tom: Yes, it's not, it was not sprinting. So talk to me about Kanban versus agile pros and cons of each, where do you do, how do you go about?
[00:19:35] Bob: Sure, sure. So. I've always resisted the use of the Japanese words in lean. Okay. This is just a personal, goofy button of mine there. I know there, I, I know many in the lean community belief strongly that the cultural underpinnings of lean are as important as the actual practices.
[00:20:00] Bob: And I understand that. I just feel like the Japanese words are a barrier to communication with the uninitiated mm-hmm . I don't think there's any agnosticism involved, you know, any special knowledge secret handshake or anything else mm-hmm so I prefer the term visual work management, which, which mm-hmm through my continual, you know, pounding on the table.
[00:20:23] Bob: Mm-hmm link. Adopted along the way. I'm not saying I was the only one, but right, right. So visual work management is a much better term, I think, just in speaking to English language audience. Mm mm-hmm but so it is funny because agile has been conflated for many years with scrum. Yep. Right?
[00:20:43] Bob: Mm-hmm time boxing. And there are certainly instances in which time boxing works really effectively and scrum works very effectively. Mm-hmm but I, I really believe that business agility comes through, comes from choosing the right tools for the job. In fact, I'm, I'm fond of saying it's only crazy if it doesn't work it's, you know, it's not STR as a religion.
[00:21:07] Bob: Yeah. It's not. Mm-hmm visual work management as a religion. Mm-hmm it is the principles of lean. Which really make the difference. And that's number one, focusing on value, number two, continuous improvement, and three respect for people. And, and if, if you really build from there, it's amazing the the diversity of practices and, and processes that are very effectively supported through lean mm-hmm
[00:21:33] Bob: In fact, some would argue that scrum isn't lean because scrum is fairly prescriptive, at least. Yeah. If you talk, if you look at the scrum Alliance and what they claim as scrum and, and, and such, it's fairly prescriptive without necessarily having a clear way in which you improve upon it, mm-hmm and right there, you're flying in the face of continuous improvement because mm-hmm any process can always be improved.
[00:21:59] Bob: So a prescriptive methodology of scrum kind of almost by definition, isn't. Completely aligned with the principles of lean. So there are a number of circumstances and, and I would submit that you know, very early stage technology companies are often one of those circumstances where you're trying to, to build an MVP.
[00:22:21] Bob: I think it's way more productive to think of that in terms of a flow model of development, rather than a time boxed model of development. Mm-hmm because your MVP is, is constantly being informed by the market, by interaction with the market. And, and I think that the uncertainties and unknowns around all of that make the time boxed approach kind of too rigid.
[00:22:51] Bob: Mm-hmm , you know, too prescriptive. Now that's not to say that you don't have a regular cadence for review and evaluat. mm-hmm okay. I do believe that's crucially important, but allowing people to sh you know, shortcut something and, and get something day and done in a half a day, that tests a hypothesis mm-hmm and move on from there and continually learning.
[00:23:15] Bob: I think that's way more productive than necessarily getting into the, you know, two week delivery cadence that most people assume is behind scrum. I think many ways that's, that's a, a misconception,
[00:23:31] Tom: So that, that's a real, that's really interesting. So I've, I've I'm gonna use the, I've always used the Japanese term. Kaban but the way I, I have translated it to people is it's a to-do list. Mm-hmm and so, you know, when your point about. Following this sort of rigid structure of when I'm, when am I allowed to deploy? When am I allowed to show this to my customers? Well, two weeks, everything takes two weeks.
[00:23:58] Tom: That doesn't feel particularly agile. , you know, doesn't feel flexible at all. It's not, oh yeah. It's so it's like what I, one of the things I love about the to-do list concept is, you know, it's like, when do we deploy? Well, whenever we want to mm-hmm , you know, we get to deploy at any time. Now, the, the thing that the question businesses ask that where there's never a, a great answer is how long will it take, when will we be done?
[00:24:27] Tom: And so the, the sort of myth to me of scrum is that I can accurately predict when I'm going to be done where now I'm, I'm definitely not a lean expert. But my sense about it is that. Velocity is not such so much of a thing. Is that correct? That if I'm doing, as you say, a visual workflow I'm not trying to measure when am I gonna be done?
[00:24:55] Bob: Yeah. It, that's a huge challenge. Mm-hmm, , it's a huge challenge. And the, the place that I come down to is always let's focus on value. Mm-hmm , let's, let's focus on predictably and, and routinely delivering value to customers mm-hmm and learning from that. And in that process, mm-hmm , we may very well find that we can deliver.
[00:25:22] Bob: In fact, I know for a fact, mm-hmm we can deliver value. That's gonna change that customer's value stream, change their. Ability to deliver value to their customers. Mm-hmm okay. Mm-hmm, quicker if we're focused on value rather than focused on the grand vision. And when will we deliver the grand vision?
[00:25:41] Bob: Because if you're really focused on what's gonna change your customer's you know, value delivery, accelerate their value delivery mm-hmm , it will accelerate your own mm-hmm you know and again, I'm, I'm always, my outlook is always B2B enterprise kind of, yeah, me too solutions. So, you know, this may or may not apply to B2C and other thing, other variations, but when we're talking B2B it's fall in love with the problem, not your solution mm-hmm and whenever you're talking the grand vision of your solution, you're in love with your solution.
[00:26:17] Bob: That's, that's the dead giveaway right there. Talking about how you can deliver value to that customer in two weeks or two months or two days. and what can you learn about their problem in the process of delivering that and accelerating that learning mm-hmm , you know I know it's always a challenge with, especially with investors, cuz they, they want to know when the road's starts and, and when it's gonna ramp and all that stuff.
[00:26:45] Bob: But I can tell you that when you get a business team, an entire organization oriented to really focus on value, you'll deliver value faster than you ever thought possible. Mm-hmm well, for one thing, it sounds to me like you're gonna you'll break the problems down into smaller problems. Always. And that if I, if I do that, I have a much higher chance of success than if I'm always focused on, when am I gonna achieve the grand vision.
[00:27:14] Tom: And I'm also willing to put up with a lot of waste if I'm focused, cuz I feel like, well, I'm just, I know the stuff we're doing now is not very valuable, but we're paying dues. We're laying the foundation for the big payoff at some point in the future. It's almost like, I don't know. You're making a go ahead.
[00:27:30] Bob: I, I, I would, I would argue that there's a lot of waste. I, I believe that incremental delivery of the most important problems. You're customer faces is there's there's very little waste involved and mindlessly implementing somebody's waterfall grand vision of the ultimate solution is inherently wasteful.
[00:27:52] Bob: You will build a lot of crap that nobody wants. In the process. Whereas if you start from a value stream map of your client's, you know, existing value delivery system and, and mm-hmm, identify the mm-hmm, clear opportunities to deliver value sooner. Even if there might be some manual processes that connect those stages.
[00:28:14] Bob: Again, your customer will, will realize greater value compared to what they're doing now, again, that, that idea of relative value, right? It's always relative to what are their alternatives. If they've suffered through a nightmarish as is condition, and you can improve that thing, that one step 20%, and it's the most important step in their total process, which is why you chose that one.
[00:28:37] Bob: You've delivered value immediately versus six months a year or two year or three years from now. Right. Trying to replace the whole thing. Yeah. And it's also harder to get them to change. If you're trying to replace the whole thing, rather than can I just get an export? if I, yeah. If you could get me an export, it would make things so much easier.
[00:28:58] Tom: Yeah. No, you can't have an export. We have to wait until the, you know, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. That's, that's fascinating. So you you've been around product management for a while you said over 20, 30 years, how has the role changed and where do you see it going?
[00:29:14] Bob: Well? For, for one thing, mm-hmm people know that a discipline of product management exists, you know, mm-hmm mm-hmm I remember one of my partners in startup in 2003 said, oh, batch, he just, he does all that PM stuff, product management, product marketing, you know, project management, all mm-hmm Batch is the PM guy.
[00:29:36] Bob: With no real clue, you know, of what was, what the most crucial elements of product management are. Mm-hmm so seeing it be recognized as a real discipline and, and seeing you know, the development of, you know, really great thinkers people like Melissa Perry and, and others who just, you know, have done a fabulous job of redefining what product management is, you know, there was the kind of archetype of the startup, which was you had a business visionary, and you had a de development wizard.
[00:30:11] Bob: And that was the, that for many years, that was the Silicon valley. You know, that was, that was the essence of a startup mm-hmm . And I've long believed that, you know, product management is what makes those two actually able to deliver value to customers. Mm-hmm not to say that product management can do it on its own.
[00:30:30] Bob: But I've seen too many cases where business, vision and technology wizardry badly missed the mark because they weren't focused on what was valuable customers. So to me, in my mind, the, you know, the origin story of most, every recent technology company involves a founder with at least strong product management sensibilities, if not world class capabilities in that regard.
[00:30:56] Bob: And I think that's a, another really big change. I think maturing of the total development process, you know, things like continuous integration, continuous deployment, DevOps, mm-hmm you know, mm-hmm, makes the opportunity to deliver value in small batches, so much more feasible mm-hmm . And at this point, I don't see any excuse for any company that aspires to rise from the muck of startups. Mm-hmm, not adopting those kinds of processes that would enable them to deliver value faster and learn most importantly, learn faster. What work what, doesn't, what customers really want. What do they use? You know, usage is, is key mm-hmm and getting people to, you know, change their behavior change.
[00:31:51] Bob: You don't have real evidence of changing their behavior until you can demonstrate that they're just constantly using a product and, and understanding how they're using a product. And the ways in which you've changed their behavior, cuz those, those are mm-hmm , it's just like the old metaphor of, you know, somebody built a college campus somewhere and they refused to put in sidewalks for the first couple years and so they, they saw where, you know right where people walk where students had had worn paths in the grass, right. That's, that's usage for a techno in a technology product, you know, figure out where people are actually using the product, how they're using it, where they're falling short and address those.
[00:32:30] Bob: Those are the key value opportunities to improve a product.
[00:32:34] Tom: I I'm always amazed at how many applications have collect zero data about usage.
[00:32:40] Bob: It's it, it is one of those. It is those things I ask in those early explorations, you know, is what kind of usage data do you have? You know, yeah, quite often the answer that's right.
[00:32:56] Tom: So I wanna, I wanna talk about Move fast and break things versus go slow and fix things, sort of two different approaches to product development. I mean, you've, you've been through the, you said the start at ringer at least four or five times. Yep. Do you have an opinion about what works best or yeah,
[00:33:14] Bob: Neither of those works. Great. Okay. I don't like either of those, you don't like either of those. Yeah. Mm-hmm you always so move fast. Yes. I'm, mm-hmm, a big believer in that mm-hmm if you have a choice of moving faster or slower, mm-hmm, always try to move faster unless it's, unless the prospect of catastrophic failure is, is associated with moving that fast.
[00:33:41] Bob: You don't wanna move too fast, but if you've got a choice, move faster because. That means you're gonna learn something faster. mm-hmm, , it's, it's the thing, you know, Eric re and lean startup. Yeah. Nothing happens inside the building until you deliver product to a customer and have them actually using the product, you don't know anything mm-hmm so try things quicker, find ways to experiment as inexpensively as possible and learn as fast as you can.
[00:34:14] Bob: That's that would be, learn your way to a solution and do that as fast as you can. And that moves, that involves moving faster. It doesn't involve a lot of Naval gazing is really, you know, being connected to customers, hearing their problems, focusing on the problems of your target market. Not allowing yourself to be distracted by the grand opportunity that may exist out there somewhere someday that you just feel like you just have to chase all of it.
[00:34:41] Bob: Be essential to someone. Okay. And hopefully that someone represents the market big enough to be interesting, but you know, don't allow yourself to be distracted by being everything to everyone. That's that's the death of an effective startup. So you, did I answer your question?
[00:34:57] Tom: No, you, no, that was good. You did. You said, you said neither. I mean, to me it sounds like you're saying like essentially go fast and fix things and that you choose speed over slow and choose adding value over, as you say, sort of the grand vision and that you want that value to be as, as fast and well defined as possible, which by almost by definition means it needs to be small. You have to break the problem down yeah. Into a smaller problem. Yep. So I have, I have. Prediction myself about where product management is going. I think the we're gonna see fewer job postings for product managers. Cause I think it's going to get a reputation and it's already developing this reputation for being a layer of bureaucracy.
[00:35:43] Bob: Ooh.
[00:35:43] Tom: And that but the discipline of product, management's not going away. So like in that, that founder, you know, the, the, the two founders you described of the business genius and the technology genius together, they're they practice the discipline of product management. But they're not gonna have a third founder. Who's the product manager. And what are your, what do, what do you think?
[00:36:07] Bob: Yeah. There is some of that that's happened, right? Mm-hmm I mean, if, if somebody really If either one of the two sides of business and tech wizard really internalize the concepts of lean startup, there will be product management.
[00:36:26] Bob: There will be some effective product management in that startup process. Anyway, mm-hmm MVP and product and market fit and all those kinds of things. I, I think that the personas are different. Mm-hmm I think now it pains me to hear you characterize product management as being, becoming a bureaucratic appendage.
[00:36:48] Bob: Makes me wanna throw up a little
[00:36:49] Tom: Me too. I'm not happy about it.
[00:36:51] Bob: Yeah. And, and, but I think, and, and this may be me projecting myself into this, right. But you and I talked about, you know, my leadership profile and other stuff mm-hmm mm-hmm I really believe that there is a leadership profile of a product manager. That is not characteristic of the dev wizard or the business visionary wizard.
[00:37:15] Tom: Interesting.
[00:37:16] Bob: Okay. And it's not to say that the, you know, I mean, typically right, the business visionary becomes a CEO and the tech wizard becomes a CTO. I think the person who brings that product management discipline to that process is logically the CPO.
[00:37:41] Bob: Okay. And I think that the leadership of an effective technology startup, and it's not to say they have those titles from the start, but they bring that expertise to the process with them that I don't think I have not encountered many business visionaries who have the discipline or tech wizards who have the empathy to. to drive an effective product management strategy in a technology start.
[00:38:13] Tom: That's really interesting.
[00:38:14] Bob: I, I, I disagree with you. I think I think there is a hybrid kind of, you know, personality that is essential to a modern, effective, you know, world beating technology startup.
[00:38:27] Tom: Yeah. Yeah, I don't I'm not saying that the discipline of product management irrelevant. I definitely don't believe that mm-hmm , but I, I I'm concerned that it's getting ritualized. So the same way that to me, the way most people practice scrum is just a big pile of crap. It's a waste of time. And so scrum, in my opinion has been utterly ritualized to death mm-hmm and I see some of the same things about product management, for instance, like, well, we, we need to have a roadmap.
[00:38:59] Tom: I've never seen a roadmap that was really worth a dam, you know, there, there help they're um, helpful to get a sense of what are the things we could do. And how do we begin to prioritize those things that we could do? But you know, when you're like, well, we're delivering this set of features in the third quarter of 2023,
[00:39:23] Bob: It's useless.
[00:39:24] Tom: It's useless. Yeah. Yeah. So that that's, but the, as you say, sort of the, the discipline though, of, of that empathy for customers breaking the problem down into small pieces shortening the time to value, shortening time to revenue being focused those things to me are, and, and also understanding that we live in a political world.
[00:39:45] Tom: I think one of the things about product management is it's a political discipline. How do I align constituencies around a particular vision, particularly when they don't report to me? you know, so I'm trying to manage all of my different stakeholders and. Anyway. So I, I a big believer in the discipline, but I just, I feel like I've met a lot of people who have the title of product manager who are my opinion have absolutely no idea what they're doing. Yeah. And no idea what they're supposed to be doing. Yep. So you, you talked to, at the beginning of the, of the conversation, you said that you had gone into an organization and it was a three month and then a six month. And they said, Hey, come here and build our product management function. What does that look like when you're setting out to build a product management function, how do you do that?
[00:40:28] Bob: Hmm. First take stock of what they know and what they don't know, you know get out to customers or prospects and understand what the understand what the opportunity might be, what the pain points among those target customers are. And recruit others from both the business side and the technology side to those conversations so that you start to build some sense of alignment.
[00:41:00] Bob: You know, they will always argue, well, we've already met all those people. We know what they need or worse yet. We are our customer, you know, mm-hmm, this, this, you know, that that happens, right? Mm-hmm, , we've, we've done this for the last 20 years. We, we know what our customers need and you know, you gotta start breaking through that wall of helping them to understand that.
[00:41:23] Bob: Yeah, I don't I don't care how successful you may have been in the past. You know, mm-hmm , you are not your market, right? Your market is bigger than just your company. So starting to pop that bubble a little bit and making that really clear that they, they don't know at all and starting to help them grasp some humility behind that is one of the hardest challenges early on mm-hmm , but it's crucial to enabling them to listen to anybody else, but themselves mm-hmm
[00:41:59] Bob: And, and then the, you know, fortunately you know, they had. A, a talented UX person as part of the development team mm-hmm and that was that, that was at least a good start, but there was, you know, prioritization was, was all over the map and it was always driven by what prospect had they spoken to most recently.
[00:42:22] Bob: And as a result you know, there was no focus. There was no serious progress toward delivering a product that could actually be deployed to a commercial, you know, software market mm-hmm and, you know, helping them understand that, that it was, you know, that it was just not a deployable product way back when and, and once they got that, then we started getting down to some real prioritization and starting to get some agreement around what things constituted, at least the first hypothesis for real MVP, rather than.
[00:43:00] Bob: The whole ball of wax where everything's as important as everything else. Because you'll just never get there. You'll never get done. Mm-hmm mm-hmm so fortunately in many cases, you know, the people I talked to have already have already lived that and already know that at some level you just have to make it painfully clear to them that they are, that they will not be successful on this path.
[00:43:26] Bob: They, they know they've invested a lot of time, effort and, and money. And they know they're not seeing the return on it. They that they expected to see. So you just have to help them understand what it's gonna take to get there. And it comes down to one word for me, it's focus. Mm-hmm, focus comes from priorities.
[00:43:46] Bob: It's not even, so this is the part that people often get confused about. And that is, I don't really believe. that prioritization. I don't believe that there is a absolute positively clear number one, number two, number three, number four, number five thing. I think there is a group of things that are probably the, you know, the constitute a true MVP.
[00:44:17] Bob: If you're guessing you will usually guess wrong so you, you might think five things constitute the MVP.
[00:44:23] Tom: Right, right, right, right.
[00:44:24] Bob: I guarantee you, at least one of those things is totally irrelevant. and I also can guarantee you that there's one thing that's absolutely essential. That's not in those five.
[00:44:34] Tom: Not, not in the list, right? Yep. Yep.
[00:44:36] Bob: But out of the four that you were right about that mm-hmm , you know, and that's a hypothetical number. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't matter which one's number 1, 2, 3, or four. Yeah. What, what, what is more important is that you've DEC you've agreed and you've gotten alignment around the fact that there is one that's most important today for this next increment of value.
[00:44:58] Bob: And then, and then it's what's next? So my idea of the ideal roadmap is, you know, this is what we're working on now. Yep. This is, this is what's next mm-hmm these are things we're gonna get to sometime. And these are things we're never gonna do. Yep. That's as much of a roadmap, you know, it's the good should foot, you know?
[00:45:15] Tom: Right. Mm-hmm
[00:45:15] Bob: that's as definitive, a roadmap as I think is feasible.
[00:45:21] Tom: Yeah, I agree.
[00:45:21] Bob: And I think that that drives a lot of focus mm-hmm , which is a winning proposition.
[00:45:28] Tom: So when you look at your career and I know you're And you, you look back over how you get to where you are now, you've obviously enjoyed and still, you know, very much enjoyed what you do. And you are what are you thinking about? What, what have you learned from your career to this point and then what are your plans to do next? So if you're sort of applying this concept of focus to your own life, what's your focus gonna be next based on what you've learned from the past?
[00:45:59] Bob: Yeah. Great question. I'm struggling with that question a bit. Because the obvious answer is to continue doing what I'm doing. Mm-hmm perhaps a little more selective, right? Mm-hmm , mm-hmm I I've been fortunate to be able to be more selective the last mm-hmm five years. And, and I am, you know, to some extent dialing back the activity level, but.
[00:46:23] Bob: I'm as currently I'm as retired as I want ever want to be. I think mm-hmm, , mm-hmm, , you know I'm still engaged. I'm still active. I like helping people through this, you know, through this Moras of, you know, how do you deliver value to customers? Mm-hmm that's what happened? My electricity just, oh, Hmm.
[00:46:45] Bob: Well thank goodness for ups. That's right. yeah, my, my lighting just now. That's where your leg go out. Yeah. But I, I, I enjoy being engaged. I enjoy solving problems that that's, that's what, yeah. That's what gets me up in the morning. I enjoy interacting with interesting people. You know, the things that I've been, it's really interesting.
[00:47:05] Bob: I've invested some time lately in a couple of workshops and interacting with some people that I've, you know, long. Admired you know I don't know, do you know Al Halloway or Jim Benson? Both of them Al is a tremendous experience in agile lean agile software development. Jim Benson, tremendous he's a shingle prize award winner for his work on personal Kaban and stuff like that.
[00:47:34] Bob: Shingo award is kinda like the Nobel prize of lean. That's great. And Al and Jim both have really broadened my thinking on around this idea of, you know, it's only crazy if it doesn't work, continuous improvement means also improv. Continually improving your process, which means even thinking kind of the next level around, what does it mean to be lean?
[00:48:00] Bob: It's not it's not ascribing to a laundry list of lean methodologies and tools. Right, right, right. It, you always have to go back to first principles and I find those to be in, I was convinced when I was at lean get I'm even more convinced now that mm-hmm, there is not a, an organization nor an industry that lean principles cannot transform.
[00:48:28] Bob: Mm-hmm I just, you know, I'm completely convinced I'm more certain of that than I am almost anything else in life, but so finding ways to apply that and finding ways to help people with that is, is. What I enjoy most getting better at that myself and finding ways to communicate that more effectively to people.
[00:48:51] Tom: Is there a personal habit you're trying to either cultivate or break right now based on that idea of continuous improvement?
[00:48:58] Bob: Hmm. That's a great question. Personal habit, trying to Hmm. That's a, that's a, that's a stumper it's I have lots of I'm rarely, I'm rarely at a loss for words. I,
[00:49:15] Tom: I have lots of things that I think I should do, but don't, you know, like, well, I should exercise, but I don't exercise. I should watch what I eat, but I don't watch what I eat. I, I don't know. I mean, like to me, that's is that a continuous improvement or just self torture, you know,
[00:49:29] Bob: you know, it depends on the perspective, right?
[00:49:31] Tom: that's right.
[00:49:33] Bob: It's all in the perspective. You know, it, it's funny. Even the word lean mm-hmm , you know, John shook and some of the people who brought the TPS to America mm-hmm have at times expressed concern that the name lean as the headline for this body of thought actually emphasizes elimination of waste somewhat out of proportion.
[00:49:58] Bob: And that's why, rather than talking about eliminating waste, I start with focus on value. Yeah. You know, it's the same thing, right? Is, is exercising more, is that improvement or is that torture?
[00:50:11] Tom: It's all that's right.
[00:50:12] Tom: It's all in your perspective. and perspective. That's a really good point.
[00:50:16] Bob: A little perspective is a very valuable thing.
[00:50:19] Tom: Yeah. I mean, it's like, I don't want to, cause I always think about myself. I wish I wasn't so fat and it's like, well, you know, you could think about it. It's like, I wish I felt better, you know? Or I wish I felt better about the way that I looked. Yeah. And okay, well, if I do these things, I'll feel better about the way that I look, you know, I'll, I'll just have more energy, but I, I, I tend to package things negatively, which is terrible. It's, it's, it's a terrible, like you always I had a mentor who I work for and he was like, no, no, no, you got, you always gotta tell 'em what's in it for them. You always spin it positive. Even if your only your release is nothing but bug fixes, you have to make sure you're positioning in a way where they're excited about it.
[00:51:01] Bob: Yeah.
[00:51:01] Tom: And I, I've never treated myself as that, that. With that same care that I do with another audience.
[00:51:07] Bob: Yeah. You, you, you may be aware you know, there's a, there's a lean practice that addresses exactly that and it's it's care. It, the name it goes by is usually comparison by advantage every advantage can be turned as a disadvantage.
[00:51:26] Bob: If you're comparing two altern, two or more alternatives, every advantage could be characterized as a disadvantage and you run the risk of categorizing things. you run the risk of double counting things. So by adopting a mindset where you're gonna state every differentiator as an advantage compared by advantage, it forces you to look on the positive side and it's actually a better way to evaluate various altern mm-hmm so, so yeah,
[00:51:56] Tom: I like that. If you were, if you could give advice to your 24 year old self, so you could think about first, tell me what you were doing when you were 24. And then if you could give advice to that person, what would you tell them?
[00:52:07] Bob: Well, at 24, I was an entry level engineer at Bechtel power corporation in the nuclear power industry. And that was after grad school graduate school mm-hmm and I would've told myself a couple of things. Probably the most important would be don't worry so much about. A a definitive career path. Mm-hmm okay. The thing I've learned in the 44 years since mm-hmm wow. The thing I've learned in 44 years since is that nothing's ever wasted mm-hmm if you're, if you're focused on, you know, doing right by your employer, your customers, your family, your stakeholders, as mm-hmm as a person, right?
[00:52:55] Bob: If you're focused on doing the right thing by all your stakeholders, including yourself it will all work out and there is no way you could, there's looking back at my career. There's no way I could have drawn a line and said, this was, you know, this was the path. This was the arc of my life. And yet, you know, I've been really blessed.
[00:53:15] Bob: And the, this circumstances of my life have been far better than anything I could have imagined at age 24 mm-hmm . And I spent all those, all that time and energy worrying over stuff. Rather than doing stuff, whether it's, you know, delivering value to my stakeholders or just enjoying the moment. Yeah. I love that.
[00:53:38] Tom: I think that's, that's fantastic advice. You know, I think about so I have kids who are in their early twenties mm-hmm and you know, they don't want my advice. You know, it's, I, that, that time has passed. Now they just want my support. Are, are they parents yet? No. No. Nobody's married. If they become parents, they, they start to be a little more willing to open to advice, open your advice. that's well, I I'm very much looking forward to them finding people who they want to add to the family. Yeah. And but at the moment, they're all, they're all single, they're all either in school or going back to law school or, you know, making progress in their career and It's a beautiful thing to see them have their own lives and to be taught by them.
[00:54:28] Tom: This, this is the thing I love so much about mentoring is seeing somebody get better at their job. And then they say, wow, you've helped me so much. And I think, I don't know how, but , yeah. I'm so grateful that you believe it, you know, that that's the way you feel about it.
[00:54:46] Bob: I I'm right there with you.
[00:54:48] Bob: You know, I, I routinely have the experience of, of thinking. I, I hope, I hope this has been useful to my client. And constantly questioning whether it really is. Cuz it feels like most of what I'm doing is just kind of asking some pretty straightforward questions and yeah. Following the thread. But. Common sense. Ain't so common to, that's right, but to quote mark Twain that's right.
[00:55:17] Bob: And it, they seem to find it valuable and I'm grateful that they.
[00:55:21] Tom: I, I, I think that there are things you can do that they cannot do internally. Mm-hmm , you know, so it's like, just like, why do I go to a therapist? Well, I go to a therapist for problems. I know I have that. I don't know how to solve myself. It's why do I hire a consultant? I have a feeling, something is wrong. I can't quite articulate what it is and I don't know how to solve it myself. So you can be that truth teller and you can deliver that, the message that they're, they don't quite know how to articulate, but they recognize it when you say is that, yes, that is our problem.
[00:55:53] Tom: And then you can help them get past that. You know, when, when it, I love the fact that when you take these jobs, you're like it's for two years, cuz you know, you want to, you want to put yourself out of a job. My purpose of, of building a product management function in your organization is so you don't need me anymore.
[00:56:08] Tom: Right. And you'll be very successful without me.
[00:56:11] Bob: you know, the, the, the hardest thing I've had to come to grips with. Is to recognize that I can't do it for them. Yeah. I have to influence 'em so that they want to do it. Cuz they're the ones that have to own the decisions. They're the ones who have to implement it. They're the ones that have to fight the battle every day. And that's, that's, I've, I've always been kind of a hands on person, want to dive in and do it. And I, I hate to, I hate to send somebody in to do something that I haven't done already. I, I feel like I have to understand it well enough that I could do it before I can expect them to do it. And that's the wrong, that's a, that's a terrible mentality. , it's something I still fight with. You have to equip and enable them and empower them and set them loose to do it because they have to own it. It's their company. They have to live with the decisions that they make. And the actions that they take or don't.
[00:57:11] Tom: Well, Bob, it's really been a pleasure. I've enjoyed our time together very much.
[00:57:15] Bob: And me too.
[00:57:15] Tom: I should let you go before your APC dies.
[00:57:19] Bob: I apologize for the beep.
[00:57:21] Tom: yeah, no, no problem. Anyway, it's great time.
[00:57:23] Bob: You're doing great, Tom. Thank you. Have a good one.