Entirely by word of mouth, educator and college counseling professional Beth Antony has built a successful business based on a simple truth: there is a better way to navigate the college application process. Over the past decade, she’s helped high school seniors into their first choice college. Her better way applies not just to kids applying to colleges, but to anyone who's trying to find their place, including businesses that are trying to find their market. Beth’s dedication to both her pro bono and for-profit clients is inspiring and uplifting.
Tom: Why start a business helping kids find the right college? How do you get into your first choice college and how do you attract clients if you do? No marketing and no sales. These are some of the questions I asked Beth Anthony, a ten year veteran of helping high schoolers get into their first choice college. Beth started her business while her two boys were in grade school. She knew the college application process did not have to be this bad, and she had an idea for a better way. Her better way applies not just to kids applying to colleges, but to anyone who's trying to find their place, including businesses that are trying to find their market. Beth dedication to her clients and her story of both for profit and pro bono services is something you won't want to miss. And she's our guest on this episode of the Fortune's Path podcast. I bet that is great to see you. Thank you so much for joining me today.
Beth: It's nice to be here with you, Tom.
Tom: So I am really fascinated and impressed by what you've done. So you've told me before. But if you could tell me again, kind of the story of your the founding of your business and why you decided to begin helping kids through their college journey.
Beth: Well, you know, the the reason I started doing this is I saw a better way. I was, you know a mom surrounded by people whose kids were going through the process. And I heard a lot of horror stories, a lot of urban legend, you know, applying for colleges, this monster, this nightmare. And I knew that there had to be a better way. I had been doing a lot of freelance writing back then, and, and parents and friends were bringing their kids essays to me and saying, can you take a look? What do you think? And I thought, that's a small part of the puzzle and not the most important part. And so I started to go through my own process of discernment and think about how can I help? My background is in education and teaching and kind of put those pieces together. And next thing you know, I have my my practice.
Tom: And were your son's your first customers?
Beth: No, no, no, they were they were early in high school, so maybe and and John might have been even in elementary school at that point.
Tom: So this was you were prepared for this when they started with you. In other words, you've been doing it for a while. When they went through it.
Beth: I was prepared professionally.
Tom: Not in any other way.
Beth: I knew what to expect. I knew what to expect. For sure. Beth: And help. Help guide them a bit. Yeah.
Tom: So what? What was your first concept of that better idea? You said you knew there was a better idea. Do you remember how what that was when you started? And if it's changed at all.
Beth: Yeah. Well, you know it kind of is in two different areas. First of all, it doesn't have to be so fraught with emotion, anxiety, worry. My background is applied human development and educational psychology. And so I thought using that background, we can kind of bring everything down to a manageable level. I tell students all the time, if you've gotten yourself to junior year in high school successfully, right, and you've managed to hold, you know, stay afloat and make friends and do all these things, you can do this. Applying to college is a series of tasks you need information, you need guidance, and you need to be supported through your own discernment processes. But it doesn't have to be terrible. It doesn't have to be scary. It's really just taking a young person and helping them make their first independent decisions and steps into adulthood and figuring out who they are and how they want to live their life. And I think a lot of students look at this process and say, I have to know what I want to do. I have to know what I want to be. Absolutely not, absolutely not. College is another step, another place to learn, grow. And I use the word discern a lot. And I do that intentionally to discern who they are. Because when you start a college as a freshman, you're not the same person you are when you finish as a senior. And we need to get that right environment where it can be flexible and support that kind of, you know, academic, social and emotional growth.
Tom: So and how important do you think college is in someone's development? I mean, does it how much does it even matter?
Beth: I think it matters as much as it matters, right? It matters is is as much as a student places a priority on it. College can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. And one of the questions I ask my clients is, you know, what's your philosophy of education? Do you view it as a means to an end, or is it higher ed kind of this banquet table, you go and you feast and you try things, and it's just important to know what you don't like as it is to find out what you do like and what you're passionate about. And people are. It's a spectrum. People fall into all different areas on that spectrum based on their likes and wants, but also on the backgrounds they're coming from. Not everyone has that great grand luxury to say, I'd like to try everything. Some people get one shot and they need to use it. So it just it really we need to be very, very strategic and intentional with choices for our students.
Tom: Do you see any trends in those that answer to is it a banquet or a means to an end? Like, have you seen the you've been doing this for ten years or so, right.
Beth: Yeah, a little bit less. Yeah. But yeah, I see some trends. So time my practice is a divided into two parts, the for profit business part. And then the other part is a pro bono part dedicated to working with students from historically marginalized and excluded communities. First gens. So people who come from those backgrounds tend to look at college more as a ticket, right? Yeah, I got the ticket. And what am I going to do with it? Where am I going to go? And my job is to help them. You know, realize that potential, but to also kind of broaden those horizons and say, while that can happen, let's also look at it through this lens. The for profit side people, you know, tend to come from a more privileged background. And so they have those luxuries and considerations that not everybody else has.
Tom: And so the where a child is in their family in terms of like who's going to college previously has a big impact on their expectation about college. And so for the for those let's talk a second about your, your nonprofit, part of your business. Talk to me sort of about what are the common experiences you see with those kids, how do they come into it psychologically, emotionally, etc.?
Beth: They are a joy to work with those students and those families. They are enthusiastic and they are hopeful. And that is something that I sometimes don't hear a lot of with some students. This is a interesting world we're living in. And I think young people sometimes don't have enough hope. And these are kids who are hopeful not only about themselves and their own abilities and their futures. They're hopeful about their families, and they're hopeful about how they can, you know, affect real change in the world. You know, once they get over that barrier, once they get it, you know, admitted into the arena.
Tom: So the the pro bono kids. That's really interesting. Are they less cynical?
Beth: In my experience. Yes, yes. Now cautious. That's different. Yeah. Yeah. Certainly cautious. Parents are definitely cautious. You know, we're speaking a completely different language. You know, the work I do with, with those, with that population is, is, you know, I have to build a foundation before we can even start, you know, saying, hey, have you taken a college tour? What's a college tour? Right. You know, that sort of thing. It's it's a completely different approach. So there's a lot of caution, maybe some trepidation. And a lot of trust building trust that goes on.
Tom: How are you identifying those kids?
Beth: They get sent to me. You know, I volunteer with certain organizations and you know, just word of mouth. That's how everybody pretty much finds out about me. Word of mouth.
Tom: Yeah. And so someone will find one of your contacts finds a child from an underprivileged background who has wants to go to college, who has aspirations to college, or has. Do you tend to work with kids who have, like, high potential that they're both in the pro bono and in the for profit? These kids who are high achievers for the most part.
Beth: You know, I think I think any kid can be a, you know, a high achiever, right? How do we define that? There's so many different there's so many different kinds of success. Academics, certainly. But I work with a range of kids with a range of gifts and talents. I also have a background in special needs education. So, you know, people who have learning differences, people who live with visible and invisible disabilities, things like Add, ADHD mental health and wellness considerations. So there's a, you know, there's a whole host to consider when we're looking at the entire person. And success can be defined so many different ways going to college, getting yourself there if you live with extreme, you know, clinical anxiety, going to college and saying, I'm going to make that move, that's success. Yes. Where you are might be a little secondary to that.
Tom: Right? Just being there is a big deal.
Beth: That's that's the win. Yeah.
Tom: Wow. Now we've talked before. You told me that your your process can start sophomore year. That's as early as you take kids.
Beth: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Tom: Can you, can you sort of walk me through your process about what that would look like start to finish.
Beth: So the intake process for for kids. Yeah. So I get to know them. Right. And we have a, I have a general intake session and you know, over the years, I've developed essentially a metric which is you know, administered through a conversation with the students. And we cover everything, every aspect of their development, academics, social development, emotional development, learning style learning, special considerations like learning differences and you know, any other things that make them unique and might be of concern to them, you know, prior to meeting with the student, there's always a one hour meeting with the invested adult, whether that's a parent or somebody else. And where I kind of lay lay out the, the, the process for them. And so everyone comes to the table knowing what to expect and how we're going to do this. It's a it starts off very gently and it remains gentle. It's a gentle process. And and I think that's why it's so successful.
Tom: Yeah. I mean, it's it is counseling. I mean, this is not buying. This is not like can you help me buy my way into college counseling?
Beth: Certainly not. It's right. Right. We've all seen how that went.
Tom: That's right. Sometimes that doesn't end up well for anybody.
Beth: Yeah. No, not at all. And, you know, if someone starts off a conversation, I want, you know, my child, let's say, to go to a really competitive school. There's a lot to unpack in that statement. Yeah, there's a lot to unpack there. So why? What is really competitive? Why are you pulling Harvard out of the air? You know. Right. And there's a lot to figure out there. And once we start teasing out those factors we really get to the heart of the matter. And what I'm really hearing is I just want the best for my my child. And I don't know what that means. And I don't have language around this, so I'm going to say and Ivy, I'm going to say, you know, the best, the most competitive and what the, you know, the most competitive for I'd say the majority of people isn't always the best decision. Right. Who are we competing against ourselves?
Tom: Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about that. So you've I'm assuming you've been watching the protests and Columbia and other universities. What are your thoughts on that? And has that changed the way you approach your work at all?
Beth: There's so much going on in the landscape of higher education right now. Certainly the protests there has been the rollback of, you know, Dei initiatives. Yeah, we've had our our Fafsa fiasco this year, and we're seeing standardized testing, which was rolled back as well during the Covid era now making a resurgence. So we're seeing a lot of different things. And and I'm concerned I'm concerned because none of this is Supports that. The whole person, the whole student in terms of those rollbacks the protests, that's that's a different that's a different issue that is also creating a lot of chaos on the higher ed landscape. I don't have the answer. On, on. You know how how present school presidents should be handling it. Because every. Higher ed institution is unique and has their own culture mission. So a religiously affiliated school is going to have a different approach to managing student concerns as opposed to a non-denominational, non-affiliated school. But there's been a lot this year. You know, it's funny, every every year since Covid, I've said this is the most challenging year I've ever had. And it's like the universe is like.
Tom: It keeps happening.
Beth: Hold on. I've got something else for you.
Tom: That's right.
Tom: Are you seeing a change in Well, are the protests a concern to parents or kids applying right now? Are they? Does that come up in conversation?
Beth: Yes, absolutely. It comes up and a lot more comes up as well. You know, legislation, a lot of, you know, schools that are located in states in the South. Right. There's a lot of concerns about recent legislation in those in those places as well. And people are making decisions based on what they're seeing happen. Students generally are very excited about the protests, not perhaps in a political way in terms of stating their positions. But I think they're excited to see engagement. And it kind of goes back to that notion of hope that I mentioned earlier. We've been a little bit short on hope in the last few years. And despite the nature of these protests I think they're excited to see some level of engagement and that they have some agency perhaps in in terms of effecting change.
Tom: Do you see kids who are so I'll, I have my own college experience to draw from, which was my dad said he I was dragging my feet and my dad says, all right, you have to apply to 12 colleges. He just pulled that number out of the air. It's a lot. And this. Yeah, right. Well, this was at the beginning of the common application. So I was really fortunate because I just filled out the common application and said, I'm only going to apply to schools on here. And so I just had one Xerox, I think 12 times all done and had next to no criteria for what to pick what was on the common application version. And in many ways, didn't you know, I didn't get into my first choice. And so I went to Vanderbilt because they were the first acceptance I got after the rejection from my first choice.
Beth: Wow.
Tom: Yeah. And that that was the whole discernment process. And it's in the South, so it'll be it'll be better weather than new Jersey. I mean Things worked out okay. And but in many ways, I feel like it didn't matter. I mean, it really. I met Anna here in Nashville, so obviously that was very important. But where I went to college, did it matter? Did it matter that I chose Vanderbilt instead of Swanee or that I chose, you know, some of the other Fordham I think I got into. No, I don't know if I got into Fordham. Fairfield in Connecticut. Did it matter that I went to Vanderbilt instead of Fairfield or any of that? So if you're talking about the hopelessness with the kids, what's the source of that? Do they sort of look at you know, colleges and absurdity. And, and this is just a stupid hoop that my parents have asked me to jump through or you know, my kids are older. So I've lost touch with this. Tell me, tell me what that generation is thinking about college.
Beth: Well, I think, you know, that sense of hopelessness is bigger than the college process. It's, you know, it's these are kids who are have experienced and lived through a worldwide pandemic. And their whole world was rocked. You know, their education was interrupted. They are looking at the studies that, you know, are being done right now. We're seeing some really limited group, you know, the limiting of growth socially, emotionally. And we're seeing a huge I cannot overstate how important this is. Onslaught of mental health considerations at the college. My son attends Holy Cross. We have seen a 400%, 400% increase in requests for mental health services on this small little, you know, liberal arts school campus. That's that's significant. So I think that's echoing this lack of hope and this speaking to the trials and tribulations that these kids have experienced and often not even spoken about. I'm sorry. I kind of wandered away from your original question.
Tom: No, no no that's. That's just, that's more interesting. So the I'm going to play cynic for just a second because it's such an easy role. So there's a more awareness of mental illness. Are we pathologizing. So it's like that increase of 400% at Holy Cross. Is that the result of kids who are really suffering, or is it just of like, this is now part of our identity of as a young person that I have some issue so we pathologizing.
Beth: I don't think we're pathologizing. I think we're becoming more open as a society. And we're talking about things in, in my generation, you know, I come from that Irish Catholic background, like, you know, I'm worried about this. And let's go get a drink of water. Put your head down on your desk for a minute and you'll be fine. Yeah.
Beth: That's right. As opposed to "Would you like to talk about what's concerning you?"
Speaker3: That's right. Right, right. Just pretend it will go away. Close your eyes and it will go away.
Beth: It will go away. And I think what one wonderful thing about this generation is they're talking about everything. They're talking about their concerns. They're talking about when they're not, when they're not feeling well, they are, and they're empowered to do that. We're also seeing, you know, in terms of you know, gender identity, sexuality, all these sorts of things. It's okay to talk about these things now and a lot of places. And those things were just not they were kind of hidden. And so I think with that hand in hand comes the 400% increase where they're asking and I think it's so appropriate something is on my mind, something is bothering me. I'm going to get some support around it. You know, as a parent, I think, oh, what could be healthier, right, right, right. You know, so I really do think and there's a lot going on. Kids are worried about the state of the world. You know, there's wars and all these sorts of things. You know, the political landscape, you know, depends where kids are, all sorts of things.
Tom: So do you have tell me about the separation you see between the children's or the kids expectations and hopes and dreams for college and the parents? Is there a wide gap there?
Beth: Sometimes, yeah. Sometimes there is sometimes, you know, the biggest joy I could possibly experience is when, you know, I get a family and they're all on the same page. Shared values, you know, shared communication. That's a joy. That's wonderful. But sometimes I'm a student safe place because despite my approach, a parent will hire me because my track record is really good. And then the the student will say, well, I'm getting really pushed in this area, that area, or they're turning the screws in this way or that way. And it's interesting. I'll end up having to, you know, run interference to the level that it's appropriate. On behalf of the student. The student is always my first concern. They are they are my client.
Tom: So that's a great topic about the decision process in these organizations, in these universities. So the cynicism that I have is that it feels like a 100% a crapshoot. And what how do they decide? How do they put together a class? And can you, as an advisor, have an influence? Are you able to speak to somebody and go, well, you know, you really need to consider this kid for these reasons. Or they're like, talk to the hand. We don't we don't talk to advisors.
Beth: Yeah. No, I would never speak with somebody in the college ever. That would not be that would not be appropriate for me to do however I can. I can absolutely help the student. Form their way, find their way. You know, a lot of people do think it's a crapshoot, however, and some schools perhaps it is. We're looking at a large school that's using test scores. Okay? I mean, get the score, get in. Right. You know, that's that's not a mystery. But if we're looking at other schools that do holistic admissions, which there are several schools that do, that's not a crapshoot. Those those classes are put together quite literally by a group of admission counselors sitting around a table holding applications, believe it or not, paper applications and saying, you know, we need a female tuba player from New Mexico. You know, she brings this this this gift, you know, to to our school. So, you know, if a student is if it's the right fit. And, you know, I would strongly encourage them to explore schools that have holistic admissions. I think if they're really looking for that kind of college experience. Not every student wants that experience, though. I have students come to me all the time who just say, I want to. I want to go to football games and join a fraternity or sorority. And. Just do a bit of work.
Tom: That sounds like fun.
Beth: Yeah, and it's not my job to judge. There is no right or wrong. It's all about fit.
Tom: Do you have a list of like go to schools, like is there I forgot about I mean there's 2000, 3000 schools in the US. I don't know how many it is. It's a big number.
Beth: Yeah it's a big number. And when we add in like community colleges and, you know, all sorts of you know special programs, it's. I don't even know what that number would be. I do not have a go to list. Everything is individualized. So after I have that initial intake session with the student you know, I go through and run. Run, you know, through their data and put together based on what they we have spoken about a list of schools for exploration, and usually it's 12 to 15 schools for them to explore, not to apply to, to explore. And it's. Yeah. And it's just as important for them to be able to cross off schools and to be able to articulate why they like school as opposed to, you know my friend's older brother goes there, you know, that sort of thing.
Tom: Right? Right. And, I mean, that's a lot of data to keep track of if there's let's, let's guesstimate that there's 3000 schools that you're looking at. How do you keep track of all that data. And it changes from year to year? I imagine it does.
Beth: It does. Yeah. You just you know, I mean, I just have to stay on top of it. And, you know, there's a lot of ways I can do that, you know, through my, you know, conferences, you know, professional organizations, conversations with colleagues. And, you know, this is an area of interest for me, right? So yeah.
Tom: Right. So it's not hard. Not hard. So I remember the way I chose my 12. Like I said, there was it was almost, almost random. But I also had a little one guide book. And I go into the guidebook. And at the time I thought, well, I don't want to be in a fraternity. So I was trying I would look at like, how much does the fraternity and sorority life have to do with the social life of the school? And, you know, Vanderbilt had a very high. I applied anyway, I don't even remember why. But that was my one like criteria to narrow. I think back then there were about 50 schools that accepted the Common App, so it wasn't that hard to get that 50 down to 12. And so what do you do? You go through a similar process when you're, you do your intake, you're learning about the child, and then are you starting to put together kind of weed out criteria about, well, we know we don't want this.
Beth: Absolutely, absolutely. And I talk about that with them during that intake session. You know maybe not by school name necessarily, but, you know, I'm working right now with a client and it's so interesting. She's telling me I want to I want a big school. I want she she wants a big school or mid-size school, so, you know, 15 to 20,000 plus. And every single thing she's telling me is, oh, my gosh, I want 15 students or less in my classroom, and I want my professors to know me by name, and I want all these things and, you know.
Beth: And, you know. You don't want a big school. And that's okay. You didn't know that because you're a kid and you need somebody to show you the way this is. And parents shouldn't have to know all of this, right? I don't know how to be an accountant. Right. You know. Right? Right. We can't all be everything. And so having someone kind of show you the way and be able to say, this is this, and the light bulb goes on, right?
Speaker3: Yeah.
Tom: So some of this, like, in some ways, college has absolutely nothing to do with what you want to do with the rest of your life. It really is more about what do you think you want to do next year.
Beth: My personal philosophy. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, yeah, I mean, but, you know, I went to a liberal arts school. I was a history major undergraduate my two kids, my older son was is a was a philosophy major in college and works at a law school now and my youngest son is a technical theater and production major.
Tom: Oh. That's cool.
Beth: Yeah. And but he has an internship with the John F Kennedy Foundation this summer. How are those? How are those related? They're not. They're not. That's the beauty of a liberal arts education. So but not everybody wants that. Not everybody wants that. And again, it goes back to what's your philosophy of education? Is it a means to an end or is it more of a process of exploration? Both valid, both absolutely valid. And I can help people with either one.
Tom: So let's talk about the pro bono kids again for a second. So are they as anxious as the as the kids you see in your for profit practice.
Beth: Not as performance anxious their, their life anxious. You know, sometimes they feel like they're carrying the weight of everybody else right on, on their shoulders. If I can do this, then we all win.
Beth: Wow. That's big, that's heavy.
Tom: That's a lot of weight when you're 17.
Beth: Absolutely, absolutely. And that's why it's such a privilege to support somebody going through that process. Right. Hum. More typically, my, my poor for profit kids are, you know, performance anxious. And I think, you know, it's all those stereotypes. Get the good grades. Be the president. Start the club, start a foundation. All those sorts of things which you don't need to do. You don't need to do.
Tom: You really some of it I think the there's are you doing that performance because you're trying to get the approval of, I don't know mom and Dad. Or are you doing that because you're a generally driven person. You know, that that comes from it's like, no, from my heart. I'm going to do everything right. You know, and so you're trying to determine, I guess Is this a sincere ambition on the part of the kid, or are they trying to avoid a theoretical beating? I mean, a hypothetical beating?
Beth: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I have a young client right now who just started with me. She's a sophomore in high school, and, you know, she came in, you know, hot and ready and she's she's going to be a dermatologist. And I mean, wow, how how unusually specific that is. And I said, well.
Tom: Sophomore year in High school. Yeah, yeah.
Beth: And let's talk about that. And you must be, you know, really enjoying your science class I hate science.
Tom: That's a red flag.
Beth: Think again, there's a lot of right. Sometimes kids just say things because they think it sounds good. There's also that big sweatshirt factor, right? We all want the sweatshirt that we can wear on Senior Day. Right. Or you know, or. And parents want that too. Parents want that too sometimes. And Why why let's get to you know, the the heart of the matter. There's a lot of good schools and there's a lot of good programs. And just because you might not recognize the name initially, that doesn't impact the value.
Tom: So what the the weed out process for the kids who are pro bono. Tell me, what are the kinds of questions that they are asking or that statements that they're making that help you make that weed out.
Beth: The weed out to accept them as a client?
Tom: No to well, I do I.
Beth: I don't turn anyone away.
Tom: But you don't turn anyone away.
Beth: I've never turned pro bono case away. Ever. No. Oh.
Tom: That's fabulous. But you have turned some of the for profit people away.
Beth: I have.
Beth: Yes, I have indeed. They were not a fit.
Tom: They were not a fit. How do you determine that? How do you determine whether somebody is a fit.
Beth: Through that initial conversation with a parent? You know, I can just tell whether or not they, first of all, respect and value my process, which is unique and quite different than many other certainly different than school based counselors, but very different than other independent counselors out there. So if there's that, you know, we're not in sync and we're not you know, I'm looking and I'm seeing a triangle and they're looking and they're seeing a square. It's not going to work. Right. It's not going to work.
Tom: So you say if I work with Beth, I'm getting a process, not an outcome.
Beth: Absolutely. And and yeah. Right. I you know, because my background is in education. Right. The first thing they teach us in, in when we're learning to be teachers is process over product. Right. So right.
Tom: Right.
Beth: It's true whether they're little they're medium or they're big kids. Yeah they're.
Tom: Big. Yeah. Right. It's like you weren't And you'd say, you know that your process works for you.
Beth: And it does. It does. Yeah, every single time. And it's, you know, it's funny when I tell that to parents, I'm like, oh. And it's. But it works because it's an authentic process and we're figuring out truly who this student is and how they want to live their life. Right. So of course it works because we've done our we've done our work. If we if we do our work, of course you're going to be admitted into your first choice colleges and universities. Will you be able to go. That's another, you know, finances. That's a whole other area. But right, every every student I've ever had throughout my entire practice has been admitted to their first choices because we've done the work.
Tom: Wow.
Beth: Yep.
Tom: That's That's amazing, because I Yeah. And why do you think it works? You say because you do the work. What's the work that makes it work?
Beth: We're figuring out because I think I'm going through that that window. Right. So to speak, of you know, applied human development and educational psychology, which I don't really know anybody else who's doing that. Right. And so we're looking at that that age is so unique and so many things are happening simultaneously. And I think if we have a handle on assessment, knowing where they are and, and we listen, right, that, that listening and in terms of that counseling aspect and, and supporting them through discernment, it's, it's just it, it's kind of a no brainer. Like, it just it really does unfold pretty naturally.
Tom: But it has to work for the school, too. I mean, if you're they're getting into their first, they're getting into their first choice. So the schools have to see something in your process as well.Right. Makes sense. Right?
Beth: Right. Well, the students are choosing schools that are so well aligned with who they are academically, socially, emotionally with their extracurriculars, values. So they're writing personal statements that, you know, echo right there extracurricular involvement there. Service work is going to be really in sync with the institutions they're applying to, because we've really done that, that level of work.
Tom: This this is it's fascinating to me because it I'm going to probably apply kind of a crass analogy to this. It's a bit. So sales how do you target your ideal customer in sales? And if I think about myself as a student applying to colleges, I am a product. My resume. Not me necessarily, but my resume is a product that I am attempting to sell to a college, and their acceptance of me into their college is like, okay, they they bought. I got the outcome I was looking for. And it's like so you can, you can do it the way I did it, which is like just send it to everybody, send it to everybody. Somebody will say yes, right. Or you can target efficiently. And so what you're it sounds to me like you're discernment process is essentially a targeting process of like who are the who are the best buyers of this kid's resume, right.
Beth: Right. I mean, I'd say, who's the, you know, the most authentic fit. That's the way I'd put it.
Tom: That's a much nicer way to put it. And how do you I mean, how do you know that? Because these colleges to. I've always felt like you had to go there and talk to people and walk the campus and to get a sense of what they were about. You know, if I read a college guide, it's really hard to tell the difference between one and another. They tend to sound pretty similar, right?
Beth: Right. Yeah. You have to do the work. Absolutely. I have to do the work, so I do. I visit colleges and universities all the time. You know, stay abreast of all of their developments. Read all the time. I mean it's funny, my my kids say my special interest is college and universities. You know, some people have those that that, you know, that, you know, just staying on top of it. You know, it's it's I think, like many educators, it's not a, a chore when you enjoy it. Right? We're we're not in this, you know for the.
Tom: You'r fascinated by it so it's not hard.
Beth: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Tom: So do you have a sense of where higher education in the US is going right now? Like, if you had to predict a trend.
Beth: Yeah. I'm, I'm I'm worried. I'm going to be honest. I'm a little worried. I thought we were heading in a really fantastic direction leveling that playing field. For a lot of people. And what I'm seeing you know, politics are, are in our political climate is impacting higher ed, and people get scared. And what people do is retreat. Now that not that's not true universally. And that's not true across the board. But yeah, I have some concerns. And that's why it's more important than ever for me to be able to help these, these kids find their place in I and to keep that, that hope for them because higher ed You know, it can be transformative for a lot of people. Not it won't determine the rest of your life, but it can be a transformational time. For a person who you meet, how you live, what you learn, the mistakes you make, right, all those things those are. That's a big deal.
Tom: Yeah. I mean, I met my wife when I quit drinking in college, so it was a pretty transformative experience.
Beth: Absolutely.
Tom: No. I was very fortunate that I came from an environment where my economic future probably wasn't dramatically impacted by my college education. But it is still highly correlative with income, I believe. I think it's getting less correlative. But I still think that college is, still correlates with income. Is that correct?
Beth: Yeah. I mean to some extent I think you're right. I think we're seeing less and less of that because now we're seeing, you know, the push towards, you know, colleges, the old high school. Right. And grad schools, the new college. Right. God forbid. Yeah. Well, I mean, the first thing, you know, the first thing I my my son heard when he graduated with his degree in philosophy was like, good, great job. Why did you major in philosophy? And when are you applying to grad school? And. You know, he's still got the mortarboard on his head.
Tom: That's right. Right. Congratulations. Here's a kick.
Beth: And and I think once somebody has been through a process like the one I take the kids through for undergrad, I think it's hopefully they can use that and apply that or come back and, you know, say, I need some more support. To their own next steps. You know, this is not you know, we can get caught up in a race to nowhere. Right. And what what is it? Who? We go back to the who? Who who do you want to be? Who are you and how do you want to live your life? That's really it. That's a.
Tom: Great question. I love those questions. Yeah. Do you ask yourself those questions now?
Beth: Yeah. Oh my gosh. Absolutely. Yeah yeah yeah I mean, you know, we as you know, we we lived in Nashville for almost 17 years and and almost in August, September it'll be two years. We moved up to Boston and you know, that that that move was absolutely part of the result of that kind of questioning, you know, who am I and how do I want to live my life? And and you know, my husband as well.
Tom: So what would the answers to the questions that made you move?
Beth: So why did we move?
Tom: Yeah. So you said you were asking that question, who am I and what I want to live my life through that discernment process, what did you find out that made you say, we got to. We got to get out of Nashville?
Beth: Well, I, I wanted to be in a place I wanted to live in a place that was culturally more reflective of our my. I'll just speak personally, you know, instead of the for my for Brent or the kids of of of my personal values. I wanted to be in a place that. Was more in sync with my worldview, and I had lived in Boston for many, many years, gone to school in the area, and knew that this was a place that that could be true. No place is perfect. Nothing is universal. But when we move back, we intentionally picked Brookline because we knew this would be a place that would be reflective of our, our values and, and and how we wanted to spend time in this phase of life. I and I often felt to be 100% honest with you in when I was living in Nashville, despite it being a great place to raise the kids and a wonderful time, I felt frustrated frequently. And that I was a bit I always used to joke around and say, someday I'm going to write my the story of my my time in Nashville and call it out of tune. I always felt I was a little bit, a little bit out of a little out of tune with some of the stuff going out there.
Tom: Well, first, thanks. Thanks for sharing that. So has that frustration gone away as a result of moving to Brookline?
Beth: Yeah, yeah. I mean, like I said, nothing in the world is, you know, 100% perfect. But yeah, sure, we I am I am personally very happy and I feel much more at peace. You know I look back at, you know I follow the news there still and I know it's the, the storms last night, and I know it's going on at the state legislature and all those sorts of things. And Yeah, I read that and I say, yeah, good call. Beth. Good call.
Beth: Yeah. For me. For me? Yeah. That's one person's perspective.
Tom: Yeah. Oh, boy. The statehouse stuff. So I'm a blue person in a red state, and that's one of. And and I have talked about leaving Tennessee partially for that reason. And but then there's, you know. Some of these, like. Well, we all do. I need to retreat to a place where everybody thinks like I do, or everybody has the same beliefs that I do, blah blah blah. And I don't know if there's a right or wrong answer there. You know, my my son always felt like he was the most or middle child. Joe felt like he was typically the most conservative person among liberals. And then he went to college and he became the more liberal person among conservatives. And I think he liked that switch for him. Was beneficial. And I think it helped him to begin to not necessarily associate himself with any particular tribe. And I would say that but I mean, I do feel like kind of the college you talked about the sweatshirt mentality. Colleges do tend to promote a sense of tribalism. I'm like, well we're, we're the Ivies you know, or we're the near Ivies or whatever. We're the state schools. And it's like, you know as you say from an individual discernment standpoint, those are pretty much irrelevant. Identities. Right.
Beth: But identity is important, right? We all want to belong. Right. One of the reasons I moved right I wanted to feel like I belonged. Right. So that sense of identity is important. And I think when you're taking these first independent steps into adulthood, away from your family, away from the cocoon, away from everything you've known. It's going to a place where you feel like I can plug in to the identity of a sec or a whatever else, you know, a Jesuit school or whatever it is. That's of tremendous comfort to somebody who is, you know, 16, 17 years old, 17, 18 years old. Whenever, you know, when they start going through this process, that's tremendously comforting.
Tom: Why start as a sophomore? I mean, I didn't think about this stuff at all until, I don't know, junior year, maybe midway through junior year or something.
Tom: Why start as a sophomore?
Beth: Yeah, the world has changed. I mean, you know, I was applying to college in 1983 with a pen, you know. With an actual pen. At the kitchen table. And a stamp.
Tom: I was the same.
Beth: And an envelope. So, yeah, it's different. You know, I and you don't have to start as a sophomore. You can. That's the youngest. I'll take somebody. But and, you know, that tends to be my clients from. Right? There's a little bit truth to the the go, go, go stereotypes of the big city. Chicago, New York, Washington. Right. San Francisco, those sorts of places. And that's just to help be a general academic counselor to these kids. So more advising on curriculum development helping them figure out how they want to engage instead of joining 500 different clubs and, you know, putting that on a resume, that's, that's nonsense, you know. Let's figure out what you're good at, what you enjoy. How do you want to spend your time. And for a big question that I ask all the students I work with which often stumps them during that initial session, is I hear a lot about what you want, what you want and what you want, but I think it's a huge consideration is how do you intend to contribute to the life of your chosen academic institution? How are you going to give back to your community that reciprocity is so important for a successful college experience, in my opinion, and getting them thinking not about what I want, what I need, what I can get, how I intend to contribute. Right. And that's a muscle that needs to be worked. You know, hopefully, ideally throughout our throughout our lives.
Tom: That's really interesting. So I'm going to make an analogy again between a kid applying to college and say a software product. So Anne and I have recently started watching Silicon Valley and we're way behind the times. It's great, but it is funny. So one of one of the running gags in it is, is that when anybody who's talking about their business always says, we're going to change the world, or we're going to make the world a better place, and they never define how or why. It's just sort of like they're you know, bullshit blanket that they put over what they're doing. Yeah. And I think so. If you ask a kid, how are you going to make the institution better? How are you going to contribute to the institution that you're going to that asks them to go a level deeper then? Well, I'm going to make the world a better place. And to get specific about it, what are good answers? Like if you said to, to me, how are you going to make time you're applying to Vanderbilt, how are you going to make that a better place? What would sound like a good answer? Enough.
Beth: Anything that's authentic, anything that's true. Anything that's true. We can start with something as simple as I am. I'm a little bit shy, but I'm going to be really nice to my roommate or I'm going to make friends in the hall. We can do anything, everything with anything. We just have to find a place to begin, right? So if they give me one thing, we can grow it. It's a seed. It's a seed seeds.
Tom: So if I said, I think I might want to write for the literary magazine. Is that a legitimate place to start?
Beth: Sure. Absolutely, absolutely. And then we can talk more about how, you know, how you would engage with that. And then most colleges now have these writing centers, workshops that help students who are not necessarily the greatest writers. They'll refine their work, and sometimes it's work study, but sometimes it's volunteer, it's service. Right. And so maybe doing a little redirection. Have you considered this? Well, if you're, you know, if you're a great writer, have you considered another way to serve your community? There's so many different ways creatively that exist or that they can make up forged your own path, you know?
Tom: So as they start to think more about what they can contribute to the institution, do you tend to see any decrease in their anxiety about the process?
Beth: 100% every. I cannot think of a student. I mean, they sometimes they come in and they're you can see in their body language they're tight. And you know, I've had I've had tears, you know of course. And Inevitably they say, oh, I feel so much better. And it's like, of course you do, because, you know, you can do this. You're not alone. Which is so important, right? We all, none of us want to feel like we're alone when we're trying to do. And we can do hard things together. This might feel a little hard, a little scary, but you're not by yourself. And again, I remind them, if you've gotten to junior year in high school, you can do this. Oh, I have to write a personal statement. Well, you've written papers.
Beth: You can do this, right. Sometimes people just need to be reminded that they can do hard things.
Tom: So. Do you try to change the kids? Is a leading question, but I'll ask it anyway. Perspective on it's not so much about, are you right for them? As, are they right for you?
Beth: So do I try to, like, convince the kids?
Tom: Yeah. Do they come? Because I would think the anxiety to me comes in like, oh my God, you know, I'm I'm going to take the the. Case that I know. My parents have said they think I can get into an Ivy. And so there I'm a sophomore and they're concerned that I'm not doing enough extracurriculars. And I got an A minus in biology and, you know, so I'm starting to do take my SAT classes. And now it looks like the SATs are back for everybody. And I'm not that awesome a test taker and, you know, yadda yadda yadda. So it's similar kind of thing about like a startup, you know, like, you know, our investors are saying we need to make this, this, you know this revenue number and we haven't got market fit yet. And you gotta, you know, blah, blah, blah. So it's all of these pressures that come from a predetermined outcome of deciding that that success equals X outcome. And you're targeting a specific market. So in the case of a kid Ivies which might not be the right market, it may be that you're actually there is no market fit for you on an Ivy. Right. And that's not because you're, you know, insufficient. It's because they're not right for you.
Beth: It's not the right fit. Right? Right. Right. Now, who knows what the future will bring?
Tom: Right, right, right. So when somebody comes to you and they're, they're in that very stereotypical scenario that I described, what what are some of your initial advice to them and to their parents to.
Beth: You know. To it's a different conversation with parents. So and I have been in I, I am in that situation right now with a, a kind of a you know What's the right word? Go go go. High profile, very successful couple from San Francisco and And, boy, it's it's like pulling teeth with the parents. It's got to be an ivy or or or not.
Tom: And it's like, Ivy or bust.
Beth: Yeah. And and so we're still unpacking that. Why? Why? And what I'm learning the more I talk to the parents is it's fear based. You know, they both went to Ivies. What will people think? You know? Well, they went to the Ivies in the early 80s. Totally different. And the Ivies aren't what they were then. Schools change, right? And evolve based on the the climate that they exist in. And so, you know, a lot of that stuff is fear based. A lot of that stuff is fear based for parents. What will people think if.
Beth: And for students, sometimes they're just parroting what they've been surrounded by. Children learn what they live. Right. And so when they're shown another way. I. They're always receptive. I always said I can work with any student parents. That's a different story. Kids are not the issue.
Tom: It's right where it's there's Caesar, the guy who used to trains dogs. He says it's not the dogs, it's the owners.
Beth: Exactly.
Tom: And that's I mean, it's interesting about that couple in San Francisco. High achieving Ivy attending couple. And fear based around the getting a negative outcome with their child or what they perceive as a as a negative or an outcome, maybe that has less prestige. Right. Do you do you ever have to say it's like, look, this isn't about college. It's not about your kids. You're fucked up. You need to go to therapy.
Beth: I can't say that.
Tom: You know, you can't say it quite that way, but have you told people to It's like this. This has absolutely nothing to do with your kid or their college process. This is all you.
Beth: Yeah. You know, I've had very few of those conversations because people like that tend not to make it through my initial.
Tom: That's. Thank God. Yeah, yeah. Thank God. Yeah.
Beth: And these people are not trying to be difficult. They, it is completely grounded in probably fear and maybe what perceived shame that would come from that. So they're not bad people. They're scared people. And that that's okay. We can work with that. Yeah. You know, I've had to I've had people, you know where I've just said, I'm sorry, this isn't going to this is not a fit for for me. This is not a fit. And I can't take you on as a client. And that's shocking for them to hear, because these typically aren't people who are ever told no, but and unfortunately, it's not a ton of people that it's happened to, but, you know, yeah, there's there's been a few folks.
Tom: Have you ever had to fire a client in the process?
Beth: No, I have not. That's good, I have not. I have not. No.
Tom: So it's. The screening is working really well.
Beth: It does, it does. It does. Well.
Tom: Let's, let's talk a little bit about successes. So there are kids who you met them when they were young and they were you know, that kind of adorable squishiness of a young person. And then they went through their college process, and you saw them on the other side and you're like, wow, look at this outstanding adult who has emerged through this. Tell me a story like that.
Beth: Yeah. Oh, I mean, you know, I, you know, I really think all of my stories are success stories because they're doing it, and I and I know that might sound like, you know, easy or cheesy, but I really mean that. I really, really mean that there's value in everyone's experience, no matter what it looks like. Right? I, you know, when I think of a success story, I think of this one young man from from Nashville who I worked with years and years ago. And he was someone who was perceived by his school and his counselor as you know, not a winner was the terminology. And there was some, you know, I don't even know what we can do with you. And he was Distraught, his parents were upset and they came to me and said, well, is there anything that can be done? I was like, absolutely. Now this was a kid who wasn't making great choices. You know, right. We believe our own, the hype that surrounds us. And so you're told you're not a winner. What are you going to act like in high school? You know, you're going to act, you're going to fulfill you're going to fulfill that role. And so I had a I had a heart to heart with him and said, you can do anything. This is completely in your control, but this is what you're going to need to do to kind of get yourself aligned and ready for this process. And, you know And stop partying. Do all, you know, all these things. And I was so proud of him. He. He did all those things. He honored those requests. He changed how he was living. He ended up going to a wonderful college. I don't want to say too much because I don't want to identify him. A wonderful college. He's graduated, and I think he's three years out now. Maybe. And, you know, he was just made sales director for a company in Chicago, and he keeps in touch.
Tom: Oh. That's beautiful.
Beth: And and he he he he ran into my kids before they moved. And he said, you know, that experience changed my life. And I was like, well, Mike drop, that's it. I can retire because that.
Beth: That's all I need. That's all I need. So when I think about success, that's what success looks like. Somebody who started believing in themself. Went off to college, had fun. But realize their potential you know. And and and understood that mistake. Your mistakes don't define you. We can come back from anything.
Tom: I love that. That's there are things I'd like to. I didn't get a chance to ask you about your business that much. And one of the things that I enjoy about talking with you is you're like this isn't a business. It's a business, but it's not really a business. I don't think about it as a business. I don't think, you know, I think of myself as running a business. Not really. Yeah, for what I understand. It's like I have a service that I perform, and I love performing that service, and I find a lot of reward in it. And I'm in a position where I don't. I'm not out looking for clients, people. The phone rings. I guess the phones don't ring anymore. But anyway, someone gets in contact with me in some way, right? And new clients come in. Yep. And that that to me, is, is a wonderful place for any business to get to, even if it doesn't think about itself as a business. Yeah. So do you have any closing advice for parents who can't afford a guide who are beginning to embark on, as you said earlier in the in the show about this is not a process that has a reputation of being fun or enjoyable for anybody. So what advice do you give to people who are just starting out?
Beth: I would say calm down. First of all, not everything in the world in your child's future is riding on this. Ask for help. There's a lot of people who do things for free. If you can't afford to hire somebody engage with your school counselor, talk to other parents, talk to people you know, in the field of education. Get curious, start reading. And sit down and talk. The most important thing is talk to your child and figure out where they are. Are they excited for college? Are they scared? Are they? Are they both? And Try to assess. We know our kids pretty well. Right. What if you could envision where your the kind of school your child would be at? Write it down. And then show it to your school counselor and they might go, oh, well, that's you know, Emery, you know. Yeah.
Beth: Yeah. You know. Somebody might be able to, to put those pieces together, but I'd say. Come and ask for help. If you feel you need it.
Tom: You made a really interesting point there at the end. I want to make sure I understand it. It's not about names. So when you say, what kind of school do you want your child to go to? Don't think, oh, as you said earlier, Harvard or whatever, UT no, it's more about where atmosphere, beliefs, that kind of thing.
Beth: Yeah. Mission. You know, look at the mission and values. At these schools now more than ever. Right. Look what's going on at schools. Read that. See where the where these schools stand. You know, that's really important. Really, really important. See what resonates with your personal your family's personal values and, and beliefs and worldview? My kids went to a Jesuit school that I happened to go to, but you know, the if we boil everything that Holy Cross or Boston College or Fairfield or those kinds of schools, Georgetown are one. The message you will receive everywhere is we, we support and create young men and women for and with others. Right. So that really resonated for me. Now, that might not resonate for somebody else. Right. But if that resonates for you, well, there's a whole list of schools that you can explore. Right. And so that's that's a way to get in. So communication you just communicate ask questions.
Tom: I love it. Well, Beth, I want to. This has been a lot of fun. I really appreciate you taking the time to do to do this with me. I would love to have you back. When we have a session, we just. I want to tear down higher education with you because I think it's a catastrophe right now.
Beth: Let's go. You get the torch, I'll bring the pitchfork.
Tom: I love it. I love it. All right, we'll save that for another time. So anyway, it's great. Great seeing you again, Beth. Y
Beth: You too. Thanks, Tom.
Tom: The Fortune's Path podcast is a production of Fortune's Path. We help SaaS and health tech companies address the root causes that prevent rapid growth. Find your genius with Fortune's path. Special thanks to Beth Anthony for being our guest. Music and editing of the Fortune's Path podcast are by my son, Ted Noser. Look for the Fortune's Path book from Advantage Books on Fortune's path. Com. I'm Tom noser. Thanks for listening and I hope we meet along Fortune's path.